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	<title>Comments on: Adobe AIR: Is breaking out of the browser the right next step?</title>
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	<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/</link>
	<description>Web apps fanatic, ramblings on dev for web, mobile and other geeky stuff</description>
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		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-35192</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-35192</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re judging security from the standpoint of someone who understands computers, browsers, applications, sandboxes and all that other stuff. It&#039;s not gonna happen, believe me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re judging security from the standpoint of someone who understands computers, browsers, applications, sandboxes and all that other stuff. It&#8217;s not gonna happen, believe me.</p>
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		<title>By: David Coletta</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33898</link>
		<dc:creator>David Coletta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33898</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the kind words about Buzzword. Here are a couple of quick thoughts:

1) Sadly, it&#039;s not as simple as just working out security issues. There are many &lt;i&gt;technical&lt;/i&gt; issues with browser/Flash interaction that prevent Buzzword from being all it can be within the browser. For example, rich text clipboard and keyboard management is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.colettas.org/?p=69&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;practically impossible&lt;/a&gt; to get right inside the browser, though Buzzword comes darn close. Still, every new browser release means a scramble to fix whatever got broke. I realize that these problems could theoretically be fixed too, but the point is that developers can&#039;t control the destiny of the browser -- these disconnects have always been there, they&#039;ll probably always be there.

2) I appreciate your comments about how good Buzzword looks even inside a browser.  However, if you&#039;ve ever seen a screen shot of someone using Buzzword with ten different browser toolbars enabled... it&#039;s not a pretty sight.  We&#039;re really looking forward to having complete control over the chrome in order to give users the best possible experience. Right now, IE in full screen mode is the best approximation, but we can do even better.

To your point that running RIAs outside the browser isn&#039;t necessarily what users want... our current stance about Buzzword is that we expect that most users will use Buzzword from more than one computer. On their main desktop or laptop machine, they&#039;ll choose the AIR version so as to get the best user experience, offline editing, better compatibility with other applications via the clipboard, and so on. When they&#039;re at another machine, they&#039;ll use the browser version because it&#039;s quicker and easier to get up and running. We&#039;re pretty sure that we need both models for a complete experience.

-David Coletta
Buzzword Developer, Virtual Ubiquity Inc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the kind words about Buzzword. Here are a couple of quick thoughts:</p>
<p>1) Sadly, it&#8217;s not as simple as just working out security issues. There are many <i>technical</i> issues with browser/Flash interaction that prevent Buzzword from being all it can be within the browser. For example, rich text clipboard and keyboard management is <a href="http://www.colettas.org/?p=69" rel="nofollow">practically impossible</a> to get right inside the browser, though Buzzword comes darn close. Still, every new browser release means a scramble to fix whatever got broke. I realize that these problems could theoretically be fixed too, but the point is that developers can&#8217;t control the destiny of the browser &#8212; these disconnects have always been there, they&#8217;ll probably always be there.</p>
<p>2) I appreciate your comments about how good Buzzword looks even inside a browser.  However, if you&#8217;ve ever seen a screen shot of someone using Buzzword with ten different browser toolbars enabled&#8230; it&#8217;s not a pretty sight.  We&#8217;re really looking forward to having complete control over the chrome in order to give users the best possible experience. Right now, IE in full screen mode is the best approximation, but we can do even better.</p>
<p>To your point that running RIAs outside the browser isn&#8217;t necessarily what users want&#8230; our current stance about Buzzword is that we expect that most users will use Buzzword from more than one computer. On their main desktop or laptop machine, they&#8217;ll choose the AIR version so as to get the best user experience, offline editing, better compatibility with other applications via the clipboard, and so on. When they&#8217;re at another machine, they&#8217;ll use the browser version because it&#8217;s quicker and easier to get up and running. We&#8217;re pretty sure that we need both models for a complete experience.</p>
<p>-David Coletta<br />
Buzzword Developer, Virtual Ubiquity Inc.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny-T.co.uk &#187; In-browser AIR functionality</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33797</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny-T.co.uk &#187; In-browser AIR functionality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33797</guid>
		<description>[...] after my previous post moaning about how I think AIR functionality would be ideally suited in-browser, I did a little [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] after my previous post moaning about how I think AIR functionality would be ideally suited in-browser, I did a little [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DannyT</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33744</link>
		<dc:creator>DannyT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33744</guid>
		<description>JD - Okay, I do sympathise that no-one has control over the browsers except the browsers themselves. But it just seems logical to me that because the border between &quot;safe&quot; browser functionality and &quot;web-enabled&quot; desktop application functionality is so blurred is there still a big enough arguement to still stick by those security restrictions? 

As a half-way house, would it perhaps be feasible to run an AIR app as a sort of windows service. Then, from a browser app, communicate to it via local-connection or xml sockets (when implemented) to provide access to AIR-only functionality?

Jim - &quot;...the problem is that most people just donâ€™t understand what they are agreeing to&quot;. Good comment and I agree completely, perhaps the best way forward is to try to educate better security practices to the masses. &#039;The
browser is safe&#039; argument doesn&#039;t really cut it for me as it&#039;s the browser that leads to the uneducated to downloading infinite amounts of chat clients, smiley packages, mp3s, media players and whatever potentially unsafe software they choose to run unrestricted.

Tink - &quot;Not if your on the train and canâ€™t get online&quot; I can still launch my browser when I&#039;m on the train, internet connection regardless &quot;AIR-the-fictional-in-browser-runtime&quot; would see that I&#039;m trying to launch my online app, know that I&#039;m offline and display the app accordingly.

Todd - yes that&#039;s pretty much what I was trying to get across in my post, the apps i&#039;ve used haven&#039;t been that useful but that&#039;s the apps&#039; fault not AIR&#039;s... The whole demo-download AIR-download app-install-use process would be a whole lot easier if I could just demo-download AIR-use. This would also solve your add/remove programs issue too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JD &#8211; Okay, I do sympathise that no-one has control over the browsers except the browsers themselves. But it just seems logical to me that because the border between &#8220;safe&#8221; browser functionality and &#8220;web-enabled&#8221; desktop application functionality is so blurred is there still a big enough arguement to still stick by those security restrictions? </p>
<p>As a half-way house, would it perhaps be feasible to run an AIR app as a sort of windows service. Then, from a browser app, communicate to it via local-connection or xml sockets (when implemented) to provide access to AIR-only functionality?</p>
<p>Jim &#8211; &#8220;&#8230;the problem is that most people just donâ€™t understand what they are agreeing to&#8221;. Good comment and I agree completely, perhaps the best way forward is to try to educate better security practices to the masses. &#8216;The<br />
browser is safe&#8217; argument doesn&#8217;t really cut it for me as it&#8217;s the browser that leads to the uneducated to downloading infinite amounts of chat clients, smiley packages, mp3s, media players and whatever potentially unsafe software they choose to run unrestricted.</p>
<p>Tink &#8211; &#8220;Not if your on the train and canâ€™t get online&#8221; I can still launch my browser when I&#8217;m on the train, internet connection regardless &#8220;AIR-the-fictional-in-browser-runtime&#8221; would see that I&#8217;m trying to launch my online app, know that I&#8217;m offline and display the app accordingly.</p>
<p>Todd &#8211; yes that&#8217;s pretty much what I was trying to get across in my post, the apps i&#8217;ve used haven&#8217;t been that useful but that&#8217;s the apps&#8217; fault not AIR&#8217;s&#8230; The whole demo-download AIR-download app-install-use process would be a whole lot easier if I could just demo-download AIR-use. This would also solve your add/remove programs issue too.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33721</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33721</guid>
		<description>I think there&#039;s only going to be a couple of applications that really need to be running outside the browser.  

I think part of the problem is that AIR is young, it&#039;s not even released yet, so a lot of developers are just playing with it and as a result, the apps they&#039;re building aren&#039;t very useful.

I do think that one of the coolest things about AIR/Flex/Flash is that developers will be able to have demo applications that run in the browser, and you can download and install a desktop application (to get offline persistence, file access, etc.) when you want to start working with real data.  Think of the online version as a demo that doesn&#039;t require any install.

Both the apps you used, Pownce and Finetune, are probably not needed outside the browser, just like you found.  With Pownce, i&#039;d rather just have a button on my Firefox that I drop a photo or link on.

Now, if someone just created a script that would automatically uninstall all the AIR apps I&#039;ve installed.....that would save me some solid time from going into Control Panel to remove everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s only going to be a couple of applications that really need to be running outside the browser.  </p>
<p>I think part of the problem is that AIR is young, it&#8217;s not even released yet, so a lot of developers are just playing with it and as a result, the apps they&#8217;re building aren&#8217;t very useful.</p>
<p>I do think that one of the coolest things about AIR/Flex/Flash is that developers will be able to have demo applications that run in the browser, and you can download and install a desktop application (to get offline persistence, file access, etc.) when you want to start working with real data.  Think of the online version as a demo that doesn&#8217;t require any install.</p>
<p>Both the apps you used, Pownce and Finetune, are probably not needed outside the browser, just like you found.  With Pownce, i&#8217;d rather just have a button on my Firefox that I drop a photo or link on.</p>
<p>Now, if someone just created a script that would automatically uninstall all the AIR apps I&#8217;ve installed&#8230;..that would save me some solid time from going into Control Panel to remove everything.</p>
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		<title>By: Tink</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33703</link>
		<dc:creator>Tink</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33703</guid>
		<description>&quot;Iâ€™ve not seen the AIR version of it which I believe is on itâ€™s way and I can already see that what AIR offers will be a great addition to it. But wouldnâ€™t it be even better if all the connectivity detection, local file storage, drag and drop etc were available to the in-browser version?&quot;

Not if your on the train and can&#039;t get online ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Iâ€™ve not seen the AIR version of it which I believe is on itâ€™s way and I can already see that what AIR offers will be a great addition to it. But wouldnâ€™t it be even better if all the connectivity detection, local file storage, drag and drop etc were available to the in-browser version?&#8221;</p>
<p>Not if your on the train and can&#8217;t get online <img src='http://danny-t.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jim Hayes</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33698</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33698</guid>
		<description>Hey Danny, I remember your LFPUG presentation, I was most interested at the time.
I wouldn&#039;t disagree with any of your post, but I&#039;ll add what AIR brings to me, if I may.
It enables me (as a flash/flex developer) to produce a purely desktop app using my existing skills. In addition I can produce the same application for on-line browser hosted use with only small and appropriate changes. That&#039;s a big win for my employers, since we need both DVD and web based versions.
I guess both versions have their pluses and minuses, and I&#039;ve not thought of any great advantages for a hybrid model either.
The problem with allowing local permissions to web apps is a tricky one. It has been done with activeX and java applets, but I have a feeling that the problem is that most people just don&#039;t understand what they are agreeing to. Thus very many got their machines compromised by bad people. I don&#039;t have any good answers myself!
Cheers,
Jim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Danny, I remember your LFPUG presentation, I was most interested at the time.<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t disagree with any of your post, but I&#8217;ll add what AIR brings to me, if I may.<br />
It enables me (as a flash/flex developer) to produce a purely desktop app using my existing skills. In addition I can produce the same application for on-line browser hosted use with only small and appropriate changes. That&#8217;s a big win for my employers, since we need both DVD and web based versions.<br />
I guess both versions have their pluses and minuses, and I&#8217;ve not thought of any great advantages for a hybrid model either.<br />
The problem with allowing local permissions to web apps is a tricky one. It has been done with activeX and java applets, but I have a feeling that the problem is that most people just don&#8217;t understand what they are agreeing to. Thus very many got their machines compromised by bad people. I don&#8217;t have any good answers myself!<br />
Cheers,<br />
Jim.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dowdell</title>
		<link>http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/comment-page-1/#comment-33694</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dowdell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://danny-t.co.uk/index.php/2007/11/18/adobe-air-is-breaking-out-of-the-browser-the-right-next-step/#comment-33694</guid>
		<description>Well, yes, you&#039;re right, the various browsers people choose to use might someday support the greater functionality developers desire for new types of applications... as you mention, the security aspects would be tricky, because a browser is oriented to being a safe way to get functionality from strangers, but there might someday be a sound way to support these types of functionality in the different brands of browsers people choose to use.

But even Mozilla is looking to beyond-the-browser work, with their Prism announcement. Do you see a plausible way that a pure browser-only situation might someday come about...?

jd/adobe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes, you&#8217;re right, the various browsers people choose to use might someday support the greater functionality developers desire for new types of applications&#8230; as you mention, the security aspects would be tricky, because a browser is oriented to being a safe way to get functionality from strangers, but there might someday be a sound way to support these types of functionality in the different brands of browsers people choose to use.</p>
<p>But even Mozilla is looking to beyond-the-browser work, with their Prism announcement. Do you see a plausible way that a pure browser-only situation might someday come about&#8230;?</p>
<p>jd/adobe</p>
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